Thursday, December 16, 2004


In a comment from yesterday's blog, blogger Dan posed the following questions:

Is God in the child molestations? Is God in the Iraq War? Is God in George Bush?

The key to answering this question lies in the last few lines from yesterday's post:

& We're going to keep coming to know one another more & more free of being identified with any veils

So is God in the child molester? Absolutely. Within that man or woman is an eternal presence which has never been created, will never die, and whose essence is undiffentiated love and joy. However, for all of us what happens is that instead of indentifying ourselves with that part of us, many of us identify ourselves with our bodies, our minds, our drama. This is living in ignorance and is the cause of all kinds of troubles, violence, and evils. If this body and mind is all we've got, then we'll do anything to fight for it, please it, and make sure it survives. This is certainly the case for the child molester who is doing unmentionable destruction because he has not identified himself with the Presence that gave rise to his body, sustains his every breath, and will exist after his feeble existence ceases to be.

The goal, then, is to "know one another more and more free of being identified with any veils." When we see someone, do we immediately label them with some temporal label or do we see them as the Light of God? True, their flame may currently be covered by a bushel basket, but beneath the self-imposed covering they still radiate the glory of God. Do we see the world that way? When we observe wheat blowing in the wind, do we just see twigs swaying in the breeze or do we see it as a manifestation of God in many forms in the world. Can we hear the sound of God that is beneath the racket? The presence that is behind the Cosmos?

This does not excuse the behavior that is born out of ignorance nor relieve our responsibility to prevent or ease suffering when we see it. Do I believe justice will be served in one way or another and that ignorance and evil will and must be dealt with? You bet. But it is a shift of consciousness that chooses FIRST to see God behind, beneath, above, within and without all that IS.

YOUR TURN: Fellow Bloggers, feel free to give your response to the questions posed above. I look forward to hearing your responses.


Allison said...

this brings me back to grace, yet again.

if we have discovered who God is, and have encountered how good He is, and how much He loves us, it has been by His grace. If we have had a revelation of Christ's sacrifice for us, it has been by His grace.

we don't get "there" by any effort of our own. we can do nothing as humans to make ourselves right with God. we are dependent on His grace, and that alone.

it is the only thing that separates us from a child molester. God loves them with the same love, sees them through the same eyes He sees us with. He offers the same free gift to them, and stretches out His arms just as wide to welcome them. they need only to receive His love.
i think it comes down to seeing through His eyes.
i think a lot of things come down to that.
and that, again, can only be done by His grace.

Dan Price said...

I would agree that it is by God's grace only and that surely we are no better than anyone else of our own merit!!! But, I would disagree that God is in "everything". The act of molestation? I hope not. It seems interesting that St. Luke and St. Paul talk much about Followers of Christ partaking in his Spirit, but those who aren't followers do not have his spirit.

isaiah said...

There are only two questions worth asking oneself in this reality called 'life' and one's answers determine how one chooses to live and die and how much love and peace is given away by one's presence.

1. Does one choose to live in Love or in fear?

2. Is everything (everything) in Divine Order or not?

Everything else- every other question is meaningless until one answers these questions for themselves.

Love and fear cannot co-exist.

Either everything is in Divine Order- or it's not.

Allison said...

as far as the ACT of child molestation, that's where free will comes in (obviously). but then that brings about the whole conversation about God's sovereignty and why does He allow those kinds of things to happen...
i guess i was focusing more on the person and not on the act they committed.
and i think that the comment by isaiah summed up what i wanted to say, but in a different way.

Dan Price said...

Alison, right on. It also depends on your view of the Bible (if you are a Christian) if it is God-inspired as it claims to be and applies to our life as it claims to, than we must face the hard sayings that God uses some for nobel purposes and some for ignoble. If you don't believe those things about the Bible, than you could believe that God is in us. Now I would agree that everyone is created in God's likeness and that God loves the whole world and for us to treat others without love it to ignore Jesus's teachings. So maybe when it comes down we are saying close to the same thing =).

Trev Diesel said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Trev Diesel said...

It may certainly be true that St. Paul and St. Luke have said that God's spirit is only in those who follow Jesus, but there are many, many other sources that would disagree with them.

This is where words fail. Big time.

I may talk and talk about orange juice all my life, discuss what it tastes like, have conversations about its acidity, praise its sweetness... but until I actually TASTE the orange juice, I do not KNOW it. I may also talk and talk about God all my life, discuss what He is like, have conversations about his qualities, praise his apparent goodness... but until I actually EXPERIENCE God, I cannot KNOW God.

The same with the "discussion" about the Light and Spirit of God - the Unity and God-in-allness that is in the Universe. My EXPERIENCE through meditation, observation, and awareness shows me these truths - over and over again. And I know they have validity because of the stories of shared experiences. They hold water because that which I am experiencing is experienced by others.

I understand where you are coming from Dan, and I totally and completely respect your views. I just personally have a hard time claiming validity based on another person's experience. I firmly believe that the experience that is available to one is available to all.

(And in the end there is a playful humor in the fact that we even have these debates and discussions. For "behind the veils" there is no separateness, no difference. Just a Oneness of Isness. And it is bliss.)

Jon said...

Gee, Trev, always posting this light trivia! Why don't you take on something DEEP for a change! ;-)

Dan, your question is one of the most significant that can be asked. With tears in my eyes, I asked my teacher the same question tonight, and he reminded me of the answer which I already knew at some level.

When God said "let there be light," the projector switched on, and the movie started playing. We call this show "Creation" or "the Universe." It's a 4-D holo-film playing in the theater of space and time, with an infinitude of characters, and a script of unbelievable complexity.

Instead of suspended disbelief like what we use when we're in a theater so we can take part in the show identifying with the characters and the drama, we've gotten it so backwards, that we can only know our reality as Children of God a few hours at a time, and it's hard for many of us to keep even that when we leave the church parking lot!

So here we are, imagining ourselves as having come from our parents, instead of God (Ps. 100), imagining that we were born in this set, imagining that we will die. These bodies will, but we cannot be harmed. Yet, our bodies feel pain, our minds encounter suffering and misery, and there is no shortage of people who are causing more pain, suffering and misery.

If there is One only, and through the miracle of Creation there are also many wills, there are also two directions, the away-from-God, less loving, dimmer directions, and the towards-God, more loving, brighter direction.

Think in 2-D for a moment. Two characters are actually different areas on the screen, one shines with light, another is dark. The darker one's deeds are, the less of Christ's light there is. The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness does not comprehend it or overpower it. The darkness is NOTHING! Only light hits the screen of God's Fiat! (Let there be!)

So there is darkness in this film. And drama. Tragedy. Horror.

If there were no darkness and contrast, the screen would be blazing white, and no story could unfold. If there were no conflict, there would be no story, and no resolution, no redemption, no happy ending. If a roller coaster has only ups but no downs, there is no ride, no scream, no laughter.

God is light, and in such, there is no darkness. There is no story, there is only God. As Paul said, there is no male or female, no American nor Iraqi, no oppressed nor free. There is no time--a day is as a thousand years and vice versa. There is only Now. There is no going or coming, no there or everywhere, but only Here.

So this play of light and dark in Creation is not bad, but... we identify with our characters so completely! We believe this world is the sum of our existence, or we act as if we do even if we say we do not. We do whatever it takes to get pleasure and avoid pain, and in many cases, trample on others to do so. We hurt others willfully, we molest, rape, murder, torture, extort, exploit, insult, and make war.

And so, the play of light and dark becomes the Struggle of Good vs. Evil. "Good" characters react to "bad" characters and often, their own actions have consequences that are equally bad or worse, as the bad guys counter-react. And the beat goes on.

Almost everything considered problem today was once viewed as a solution to something earlier. There is a way out. It's remembering who you really are. The world is God's soundstage. The "you" you thought you were was a character, a constantly changing pattern of light and dark on the screen. (And only the light is real). In waking up to this, the illusion of our character, our birth, race, personal story, feelings, nation, and so forth is blown away. It's dying to self, and being alive to Christ. It's being born of the Spirit. It's "putting off the old man and putting on the new man." It's enlightenment, or fana, or Self-realization.

And then, you find you still have a body, still have a mind and feelings, and you still experience the story and the sets and the conflicts. But you know what you are! And in so knowing, you can act without reacting, without conditioning. You can see that the bad guys are nothing but light, as you are, although there's less of it there. You know that no one, is different from you in kind, only in awareness of truth.

Your heart breaks with compassion for all of those who don't know who they are, who their Father truly is. You can do whatever seems necessary or appropriate. Sometimes that might be with gentle or loving actions. Sometimes it might be acting with force to protect another character. Sometimes it might be by picking up a cross. You act because you love the world and so, as God's child, you go to it, not to condemn it, but to save it. And everything will be driven by one goal only... helping people know who they really are, to be transformed by the saving knowledge of God's light.

Trev Diesel said...

Oh. My. Goodness.

That was the most incredible layout of the "big picture" that I have ever seen.

Thank you, Jon.

(I'm going to spend the rest of the day reading and re-reading it)